This article is spot on and well worth a read. Sums things up nicely.
It is this point which is particularly powerful:
Many Palestinians see [Hamas' global Islamist goals] as a betrayal of their national aspirations. They do not wish to be the sacrificial lamb of pan-Islamist global ambitions
This is spot on and exaclty right. All those who claim to be standing up for Palestinians are actually doing them a shocking disservice when they back Hamas.
It's also nice to be reminded that Hamas only won 46% of the vote in the Palestinian elections for all those that insist upon their democratic legitimacy (see post below "on democracy")
In the 2005 GE, the Labour Party won the election with a 36% share of the popular vote, frightning less than Hamas!!!!
ReplyDeleteI'm sure you'll be consistant and decry this result as undemocratic as well (BTW I'm a Labour Party memeber!!!)
As I outlined on Luke's Blog (some right whack jobs posting support for Israel, you are atleast much more intellegent and saner than them), I think Hamas's support not only stems from the building of schools and hospitals but also what was even then a fragile economy getting worse. In such circumstances (unemployment, no hope for a better future) extemists poll very strongly (remember it was a shock Hamas won), so no surprise about the opinions. Unfortunately Israel is helping them become more popular by fighting them. It looks to them like (however wrongly), they are sticking up for themselves rather than being continually humiliated by Israel. This also helps lionise them in the eyes of Arabs, just a thought.
I have to pick the missus, but later I'd like to respond to the Israel apartheid point as my previous response was lost, no subterfuge just clumsy computing skills (or lack of....)
Sorry about that I have to type this fast cos if the missus wakes up I'm toast......
ReplyDeleteIn our discussion on zionism on a previous post, you reponded to my accusation of an Israel apartheid as borderline offencive to the people who suffered under the National Party reign in SA.
Believe me Dan I don't use this word lightly. I am sure you are well aware of the brave jews in South Africa who faught hard to end apartheid, many of them were locked up as terrorists. Thanks to the efforts of these people and people like them South Africa is free of this horrific injustice. This we know, do you also know those same brave anti apatheid warriors (the very victims of their activism against the state)describe what is going on in Israel as an "apartheid".
The Citizenship and Entry into Israel Law was an Israeli law first passed on 31 July 2003. The law places age restrictions for the automatic granting of Israeli citizenship and residency permits to spouses of Israeli citizens, such that spouses who are inhabitants of the West Bank and Gaza Strip are ineligible.
Critics argue that the law is discriminatory because it disproportionately affects Israeli Arabs, since Israeli Arabs are far more likely to have spouses from the West Bank and Gaza Strip than other Israeli citizens.
Critics have included the United Nations Committee on the Elimination of Racial Discrimination, which unanimously approved a resolution stating that the Israeli law violated an international human rights treaty against racism.
Amnesty International, which has argued that " [the] current form the law is discriminatory and violates fundamental principles of equality, human dignity, personal freedom and privacy, enshrined in the Basic Law: Human Dignity and Liberty, as well as the right of children to live with both parents, and other fundamental rights enshrined in international human rights treaties to which Israel is a party and which it is obliged to uphold"
Ze'ev Boim, the current minister for housing, who supported the measure said the law is aimed at preventing terrorist attacks and that "We have to maintain the state's democratic nature, but also its Jewish nature."
"Its Jewish nature", almost reminds me of "whites only".
You told me the creation of a Jew only country would mark the end of you being a zionist as you veiw sucha propostion as racist, so do you think this law is meant to stop terrorism, or is it a way to ethnically cleanse a state, or both?
Palestinians living in the non-annexed portions of the West Bank do not have Israeli citizenship or voting rights in Israel, but are subject to the policies of the Israeli government. Israel has created roads and checkpoints in the West Bank with the stated purpose of preventing the uninhibited movement of suicide bombers and militants in the region. The human rights NGO B'Tselem has indicated that such policies have isolated some Palestinian communities.
Marwan Bishara, a teacher of international relations at the American University of Paris, has claimed that the restrictions on the movement of goods between Israel and the West Bank are "a defacto apartheid system".
Olmert when he was Deputy Prime Minister of Israel, said in 2004
"More and more Palestinians are uninterested in a negotiated, two-state solution, because they want to change the essence of the conflict from an Algerian paradigm to a South African one. From a struggle against 'occupation,' in their parlance, to a struggle for one-man-one-vote. That is, of course, a much cleaner struggle, a much more popular struggle - and ultimately a much more powerful one. For us, it would mean the end of the Jewish state"
He also said this,
"If the two-state solution collapses, and we face a South African-style struggle for equal voting rights, then the State of Israel is finished."
And this man is PM......
You are no yes man for Israel, you say so yourself so I know you'll be critical of Olmert's comments, unfortunatley you caa't say he is of no consequence in this matter.
The Israeli identity card,has to be carried by all residents over the age of 16. On this card it indicates whether holders are Jewish or not by adding the person's Hebrew date of birth. The Guardian's Chris McGreal former chief Israel correspondent (he also used to be chief correspondent in apartheid era SA), reported that the ID system determines: "where [Arabs and Jews] are permitted to live, access to some government welfare programmes, and how they are likely to be treated by civil servants and policemen." On a side note, this is the reason I don't like ID cards in the UK, the chances are more ethic asians (like myself) will be stopped in the street and asked to show my papers.
He made the likenedd Israel's Population Registry Act, which calls for the gathering of ethnic data, to South Africa's Apartheid-era Population Registration Act.
Pretty damming stuff......
Look there are loads I could unfurl, but I can see she is getting move restless, I swear she'll wake up soon and tell me off for not going to bed, so I'll call it a night, look forward to speaking to you soon.....
Well you obviously do use the term lightly – far, far too lightly. I don’t mean to take a patronising tone here but you obviously have big gaps in your understanding of Israeli society and Israeli law. Democratic equality and equality of all kinds is enshrined in the Israeli constitution.
ReplyDeleteI’ll start by saying that I in no way approve of the citizenship laws you mention. I am in fact actively opposed because they result in a lack of equality for Israel’s Arab population just as I oppose any law which would have the same effect. I also oppose all laws which attempt to artificially maintain the status quo of “Jewish majority”. But it is important to understand that bad laws such as these do not constitute anything close to a system of apartheid as you claim (and they are not, and you know it, systems of “ethnic cleansing” which is a ridiculously and intentionally pejorative term)
For a start, every adult citizen of Israel has the right to vote in elections regardless of their race, religion or any other aspect of their identity. Arab and Jewish children attend the same schools and have the same access to healthcare and education (the former being among the best in the world). Arab soldiers fight alongside Jewish soldiers in the IDF. There are Arab members of parliament and an Arab member of Israel’s cabinet. There are no laws on who can or cannot marry whom (the Israeli state even recognises civil partnerships between same sex couples and their protection is enshrined in law). As I am sure you will see from this long, and by no means exhaustive list, Israeli society is in fact not a system of apartheid. In fact, it is the freest society in the whole region. It is certainly the only country in the Middle East where I could live as a gay man and worship which ever god I please, or none at all.
There is obviously an exception to the above – namely the Arab citizens of the West Bank. Because Israel has never annexed the west bank, those Arabs who live there are not citizens of the country. The disputed nature of the territory under international law means that they are unfortunately not actually citizens of any state. This status quo is obviously something which I disagree with – it is another reason why I believe that this land should be given to the Palestinian people as an independent state as soon as is feasibly possible. I oppose any attempt by the Israeli government to hold on to or annex this land in any way.
The law which you mentioned is a bad law – and unfortunately it is not the only bad law in Israeli currently. It was made by right wing parliamentarians with whom I have fundamental disagreements with. Unfortunately they were voted into office by the Israeli people, probably as a reaction to the rise in terror attacks over the last five years (and thus the cyclical nature of the Arab-Israeli conflict). But there is a vast difference between bad laws and systems of institutionalised apartheid.